English Skins, scales and logic.

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15.05.17 02:46:39 pm
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Pagyra
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First of all I want to explain the reason for writing this message and opening the topic - many know that I'm trying to create my skins in a pseudo realistic style, many like it, although of course there are opponents of my style.
They can be understood, because my skins look strange if they are surrounded by standard skins, and more of this they look strange and because of the specifics of all skins cs2d.

Now I will list a number of illogicality (specificity) of standard skins cs2d in comparison with real parameters:

In CS2D at this moment current player size is 1 tile = 32 pixels or even less if we try to take estimate of sizes for player skin on sprite.
But what we can see on its sprite -
IMG:http://s019.radikal.ru/i609/1705/6e/e0a2e648af0c.png

Player head size = 12 pixels
Player shoulders size = 22 pixels
Player hand size = 24 pixels
Player height in game = 32 pixels (but at logo it is 48 pixels)

But real average human sizes and dimensions of individual parts of human body are interrelated in different ways, there are many rules and canons of sizes of human body(Golden ratio, divine proportion and so on). Of all stories suggested by history, most convincing, simple and correct measure for measuring a person's body is its head. So for example you can associate real height with height of head.
Lets look at some images of human body proportions:
IMG:https://s8.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2017/03/e1b95fccb6b6b0bab3ea167ce75ae357.jpg
IMG:http://www.artprojekt.ru/school/academic/pic/026-sm.jpg
IMG:http://www.artprojekt.ru/school/academic/pic/027-sm.jpg
IMG:https://abc.vvsu.ru/books/risunok/obj.files/image040.jpg
IMG:http://gardenweb.ru/gallery/jergonomija/image_3.gif
IMG:http://abriell.ru/images/pages/889-7-b.jpg

IMG:http://www.doll4you.narod.ru/sovety/sovet1.image/image002.jpg

So return to average human sizes:
human height = ~1,73 meter
head size = ~23 cm
shoulder size = ~ 46 cm
hand size = ~ 92 cm

Or for example lets look at weapon skins:
Standard M4A1 length in game = 1 tile = 32 pixels
Real M4A1 length = 83.8 cm (butt is extended); 75,7 cm (butt is completely folded)


in game there is possibility of changing right-hander to left-hander, but this does not affect at gameplay or at position of weapon's skin. But lets look at body shooting position in real in pistol position:
IMG:https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/instructors-corner-the-isosceles-platform.jpg

As we can see that is right-hander pistol position so pistol moved from center to line of right eye sight, head on neck is moved to right too, to have more good line of view.
Rifle position looks same but have another hand and body angle position for more big than pistol weapon length and weight.
IMG:http://neveryetmelted.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/AKTest1.gif

Anyway we can see that there is big difference with right-hander or left-hander body position. And if we are guided by position of body, then when changing hands, position of weapon also changes - in any case, it is not in center.

Same problem with position of knife holding and grenade throwing. So i think CS2D need correct player and weapon skins and change hit position to drawn image.
15.05.17 03:01:05 pm
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Yates
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It's just a game made back in 1340 B.C. dude.

I admire your effort to always push the boundaries of CS2D, making it more realistic and trying to always get everything out of a certain element. But let's be honest here, if people liked this style it would have been in the game by now. But people prefer the cartoonish style. Not because it's the most accurate, but simply because it looks better.
15.05.17 04:08:00 pm
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Avo
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Dude, come on, realism isn't always what people like. Just ask people enjoying hentai.
15.05.17 04:28:28 pm
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64th
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Quote:
CS2D need correct player and weapon skins and change hit position to drawn image.


Ahem,CS2D not 3D.This will change entire game completely.Just keep it normal.It's is pointless to add such a thing.

Edit:Even CS2D is not that realistic, it's still fun to try.
(This what's happens when we put pseudo 3D effect.)

Editx2:Changing 32x32 hit detection to image drawn hit detection? Nope.Just nope.Nope,nobody likes that.

Tbh,realism and visual isn't really user DC's objectives.CS2D is meant for fun game.Take a look 90's games.Less visual,more fun.
edited 3×, last 16.05.17 04:22:41 am
I'm still here. Slowly improving.
15.05.17 04:50:20 pm
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Pagyra
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In th 2004, DC needed some skins to test his game, he quickly, literally on his knee drew stupid cartoonish style skins, he thinking that someday later they would be improved.
And then came year 2017 and in game introduced HD-textures - not only tiles have now become 64 * 64 pixels, now player can have more quality skins, weapon skins now can have HD quality skins too but with some limits(only if skins resolution have from 64*64 to 75*75 pixels) and even GUI images now can have HD skins.
IMG:http://s11.radikal.ru/i183/1705/5c/6914f15c02d4.jpg


So for those who are in tank I advise you to forget the habit that "everything as before is good and new is bad".
15.05.17 05:12:41 pm
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Sparty
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user Pagyra has written:
In th 2004, DC needed some skins to test his game, he quickly, literally on his knee drew stupid cartoonish style skins, he thinking that someday later they would be improved.


Love to see user DC respond
user DC has written:
@user omg: Actually a pretty good idea...
15.05.17 05:22:09 pm
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Yates
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@user Pagyra: That may be so, but if something isn't broken why should it be fixed?

Many mistakes in history lead to great discoveries or creations. Who are we to change something loved by many if not all because of our own opinions?

If people want change, it will happen (note people, not singular person).
edited 1×, last 15.05.17 05:26:30 pm
15.05.17 05:25:23 pm
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Avo
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user Pagyra has written:
So for those who are in tank I advise you to forget the habit that "everything as before is good and new is bad".

Habit? It's just our opinion. It's all about preferences, not simply being conservative assholes.
15.05.17 05:42:20 pm
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the bamboozle
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I do not have problem with the current one. Maybe you should release your work so we can try it out.
IMG:http://i.imgur.com/25W0hbk.png
wow, such signature, much fabulous
15.05.17 06:06:40 pm
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Pagyra
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If people do not know that they are offered a new one, if they have not tried this new one, they can not build their opinion without comparison.
Adoption of the opposite is a bad habit.

This topic not for my "work" - This topic for discussion, in addition to cs2d in world there are enough 2D games with top down view - and visual and technical part of which sometimes better than it is in cs2d at this moment, and often visual skins in them are also close to my "realistic" style. And most players like it. So based on these data, I can with a high degree of probability to say that I'm right, and you're wrong.
Therefore, I ask you to accept my point of view for the starting point and to suggest your options for improving the visual portion of cs2d.
I do not think that cartoonish style is bad, I just think that at moment in connection with new appeared possibility of HD graphic improvement it is necessary to modify old and existing skins.
edited 1×, last 15.05.17 07:38:11 pm
15.05.17 06:31:35 pm
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kerker
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Realism, of course, is not bad. But in the games his presence is not so important.
15.05.17 07:46:18 pm
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DC
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Yes, the proportions are not realistic in any way. I totally agree there.

The player skins are designed to work well gameplay-wise. I honestly didn't care about realism at all when making them.

The benefits of this simplified design:

√ Players are more compact. This way they fit on a 32x32 tile very well and it allows me to use a highly simplified collision detection.

√ A big head and thick arms make it easy to recognize and differentiate between the factions (T/CT).

√ relatively big weapons make it easier to see which weapons the players are holding - quite important for gameplay.

Also real human beings look just stupid in a top down perspective. I don't want CS2D skins to look like that. I would hate them - and I can't work on a game that I hate

So I guess the actual problem here is that we expect two different things:
• me: a fun game
• you: a super realistic game

I don't say that it's impossible to have both but I just like the way the current skins look like and I don't want to change that

And btw: Cartoonish style can also be HD. HD doesn't mean that it needs to look realistic. Not at all. Style and resolution are not necessarily connected.
www.UnrealSoftware.de | www.CS2D.com | www.CarnageContest.com | Use the forum & avoid PMs!
15.05.17 11:51:30 pm
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Pagyra
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user DC:
Firstly you "totally agree".

Interesting reasons in your message but nevertheless...

There is no problem to find a collision between rectangles of any size with same way. More than this it can be improved to add more features in game.
There is no problem to recognize and differentiate between the factions (T/CT) for skins with correct body part sizes. Moreover, at this moment it looks worse due to fact that large parts of body interfere with other details - for example huge head and arms prevents to see colors of clothes, factions simbols and emblems, or even pieces of weapons and other details.
At this moment in current scale of CS2D weapon skins have lower size than its real analogies and that is prevents to see other details of weapon too.

So that is "quite important for gameplay".

Majority of people who have seen CS2D skins for first time fall into this temporary stupor due to internal dissonance of perception of skins images - they internally expect to see just little men with a top view (many are accustomed to a picture they already saw while simply looking at other people from a great height). So i'm think that real proportions and scales for skins is good idea.

I am pleased with knowledge that you are preparing next release with addition of skins animations and some other features and bug fixes, but probably it will be not soon.
Therefore, I propose to start creation of correct skins, which in future will only need to be divided into parts to create nice animations.

Yes, CS2D already has a peculiar style, and so I ask you one more time try to read highlighted bold words from my previous message.
16.05.17 03:51:53 am
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Nekomata
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It's fine as it is. It's not important to gameplay for me as I (like many others) worry the least about the realism and more about where the aim is.
16.05.17 08:21:08 am
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BCG2000
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@user Pagyra: You should just go and create your own game the way you want it to be instead of wasting your time trying to change a game which was purposely made to look the way it is.

@user DC himself explained that and said he won't change it and you are deliberately ignoring that.

Walls of text aren't gonna convince anyone. I mean no offense, but you should really go make your own game like I said before.

You put a lot of effort making things on this game while expecting it to do things it wasn't designed to do, you also expect that it behaves and looks like you want it to.

When will you realize that it's not your game and that if you want something to be exactly like you want it to be then you should go and make it yourself from scratch?

You have the potential and skill, stop wasting it already.
16.05.17 09:13:38 am
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Sparty
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user BCG2000 u is savage, heres some cookies

Real question, is why user Pagyra is that you want to change it..I know its the future but its like remaking The lion king and making it into 3D design.

Which is a No No.
user DC has written:
@user omg: Actually a pretty good idea...
16.05.17 09:42:12 am
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Yates
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user Pagyra has written:
user DC:
Firstly you "totally agree".

He only agreed with player proportions being unrealistic. Not with drastic design changes.

Stop seeing what you want to see.
16.05.17 11:40:21 am
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Pagyra
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I did create this topic not in order to listen to someone's opinion about what he likes and what does not.
Unfortunately in this community there are a lot of people who just talk and can not offer something of high quality or do that in same way.
So I ask moderators to do their work and remove those posts that do not follow topic - in particular if they contain a meaningless flood that does not express specific ideas,suggestions and proposals about remaking skins.

EDIT:
im just place there some sprites as examples:
IMG:http://www.taidous.com/data/attachment/forum/201704/25/095726f3n52uy0ajpjaqjr.jpg

IMG:http://s019.radikal.ru/i602/1705/38/93adc272a459.png
edited 1×, last 16.05.17 01:32:55 pm
16.05.17 11:57:04 am
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Yates
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@user Pagyra: How do you even socialize? What do your friends even think of you? Do you even have any friends? Do you talk like this as well or does this only happen when you see a keyboard?

Please, do tell. Because right now I cannot comprehend an enormous douche bag with no ability to even visualize or even think about other people's opinion or view before blatantly spewing out fucking nonsense.

In fact, no, I actually can. It goes like this:
Hey, my name is Pagyra, use my "realistic" ugly ass skins and accept everything I say because I'm not going to listen and create millions of threads about my own work and ideas then proceed to brag about everything I do yet all I have to show for it is a bunch of pictures.

user Pagyra has written:
Unfortunately in this community there are a lot of people who just talk and can not offer something of high quality or do that in same way.

Ever realized that this is you?
16.05.17 12:04:33 pm
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64th
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I am sure you want user DC rewrite CS2D again?Just keep it's old simplified style.If you want to do so,do what user BCG2000 says.

Edit:Hah,reference image,made "rewrite" more sense.
Whelp,time to move on to unity3D next time.

It's up to user DC choice.It's not even your own game.
edited 2×, last 16.05.17 06:59:38 pm
I'm still here. Slowly improving.
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